AYAAN HIRSI ALI
WRITER, ACTIVIST, SCHOLAR, & FORMER MEMBER HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, NETHERLANDS
Ayaan Hirsi Ali (AHA): They had to be told to go there and say Islam is a religion of peace. I said I'm not going to say anything of the sort. l've got six armed guards. I'm not going to say Islam is a religion of peace.
Ted Cruz (TC): Repeat that for a second. You had six armed guards. Why? Why is that? Who was trying to kill you?
AHA: What I was ..., the people who were trying to kill me was the protected minority of Muslims. Many of them who were radicalized by the Muslim, local Muslim Brotherhood in the Netherlands.
And the local Muslim Brotherhood had control of the larger Muslim communities. And at that point we knew that not all Muslims in the Netherlands were loyal to them. But they it was like the mafia. If you're a Muslim living in the Netherlands in one of these large cities, if they told you vote this way, you vote that way. And so the woman who was sort of sent in there, you know, colored immigrant, whatever, she was saying, I can't win the votes if Ayaan is saying is making these statements about Islam and the position of women and homosexuals and Christians and Jews and all of these things.
So in order for me to win the vote or to even be competitive, I have to at least accommodate them in some of these policies.
Now what?
So tell us what is Islamism and how does it differ from there well over a billion practicing Muslims worldwide.
Not every Muslim is an Islamist.
What's the difference between the two?
Political Islam, I would say, is in some ways different from general Islam.
I know some of my fellow researchers are just going to be really upset with me when I make this distinction.
But in practice, when I look at countries like the United Arab Emirates and the leaders of the United Arab Emirates, what they are trying to say is look, there is Islam as a civilization.
We're trying to cope and modernize and do this is our national identity.
This is our religious identity.
But on the other hand, there's political Islam which is that what is promoted by the Muslim Brotherhood.
And political Islam is a modern movement that was born out of the fall of the Islamic Empire in 1924 when the Ottoman caliphate fell apart.
They developed this ideology collectivist totalitarian which is in pursuit of establishing Islamic dominance over the what used to be the Islamic heartlands and then spread out throughout the rest of the world.
So we're looking at an Islamist political ideology versus Islam a civilization.
Islam has a lot of problems and I'm the first one to admit that.
But I think as Americans today, our focus should be on political Islam because it's easier to diagnose. It's easier to define.
We know what their objectives are.
We know who leads them.
And we know also that they have and formed an alliance with radical communists with communists.
They operate as a subversive effort which I call dawa and then there is of course we are familiar with the terrorist or jihadi aspect of it.
So complicated, yes, conceptually but in practice easy to define, easy to understand and in my view easy to combat.
Countries to listen to today are the heartlands of Islam, the rulers of the United Arab Emirates and maybe even Saudi Arabia, because in 2010, 2011, 2012, I think these countries were support before that they were supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.
They had welcomed them.
They had given them access to their institutions of socialization.
And then they discovered that the ideology that the Muslim Brotherhood was committed to was one that wanted to overthrow them.
And from that moment they were able to do that U-turn where they kicked them out.
They banned the Muslim Brotherhood understanding them, number one, to be a subversive effort and terrorism and jihadism is sort of a tool to help the subversive effort.
So these the Muslim Brotherhood is banned in the UAE, they are banned in Egypt, in in all of these countries.
And I think we should be doing the same thing.
But the danger for us in Europe and in the United States is the Muslim Brotherhood comes in legitimately saying, "Hey, all we're doing is observing religion. We are taking advantage of our freedom for association, freedom of speech, freedom of freedom of freedom of."
And they're using these freedoms to subvert our own societies.
And I think that is the trick for us.
You as a senator in Congress, you are going to have to grapple with the question, how do I deal with a subversive effort like this one that's seeking to destroy our system. While at the same time not violating those freedoms.
And that's something that some of these Arab countries don't have to deal with, Singapore doesn't have to deal with.
That's our problem.
l compare the Muslim Brotherhood.
If you ask me, can you explain it to someone who doesn't know?
l'Il say, "Hey, if you live in Texas, have you ever been confronted with a termite infestation?"
When I was little and we lived in Mogadishu, we had termites and they would eat up into some of these valuable wooden like my my grandmother had this enormous cupboard that she had been moving from Aden and Yemen all the way here.
And from one day to the next, the whole thing came. It just she moved it and it just felI.
Wow. Wow. And she discovered in the back were th ese teeny tiny termites that were acting as a colony. They were eating eating away at it.
And that is the Muslim Brotherhood. It's a bottomup operation.
It's decentralized.
It's globalized.
One day they'll speak the language of peace and unity and the next the language of jihad and war.
And it's very very difficult for us to look at this.
But because they've been around since 1928, for those of us who really want to see the truth, we can see it. We know how they operate.
We know who they are.
We know that they go through universities, the media, the elites, through commerce.
And so now that we have this big picture, we just need the courage and the political will to say, you are not going to do to the United States what you did to Europe. You're not going to do to Europe what you did to Nigeria and to other parts of Africa, Indonesia, India, etc. Seems to be really I think smart in a way where it's almost like they have times where they grow while dormant, while peaceful and as I've studied them more than l honestly ever thought I would. Because of what we've seen over the last 15 years. It's like they have these ups and downs, where it's like here's a time to build and be quiet and look like we're peaceful as we plan for the next big thing that we do is that part of the reason why they've been able to stay around and continue to grow around the world for so long.
Absolutely. Also, because they operate on a different timeline, that's it's very important to bear that in mind.
They know that in the United States, we operate, oh yeah, 2 years to the midterm, 4 years to the presidential election. So, they think, oh, these white western Christians, they have 2 year and four year timelines. They have a hundred year timeline, 200 years, 300 years. As long as Islam becomes dominant and they can impose Sharia, that is their faith. Number one.
Number two, they form alliances with organizations and movements that are completely different from them. So for instance, the communist Marxist again infestation that is there to destroy us. They form alliances with them because they have that common goal of as long as we bring down the structures of America way down down the road, we're going to figure out who is going to dominate.
Now, let me give you one hint. In the years prior to 1979 in Iran, the Islamists and the Marxists were operating together. What happened when they succeeded in their goal of destroying the Shah and his regime. {Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was the Shah of Iran from 1941 to 1979. He succeeded his father Reza Shah and ruled the Imperial State of Iran until he was overthrown by the 1979 Islamic Revolution led by Ruhollah Khomeini, which abolished the Iranian monarchy to establish the Islamic Republic of Iran.}
The Islamists then destroyed the communists. So that is a warning for the Marxist to say I don't know who's going to repeat itself.
Yeah.
TC: So what do you make of the red green alliance and that seems to be the energy and passion behind Zohran Kwame Mamdani . What do you make of Mamdani and as someone who has come from Somalia, who has seen this? How do you assess what's happening in New York?
AHA: Well the way I see it is , Mamdani is a reflection of both movements. So he is a watermelon, the son of a watermelon.
TC: And he comes in saying, so explain watermelon to someone who hasn't heard that before.
AHA: It's the red green alliance. If you've ever seen a watermelon, it's green on the outside. We say Islamist or political Islam on the outside. And red communist or Marxist on the inside.
So they have a common objective which is they hate capitalism. They hate our system of government. They have a each of them. There's the green utopia which is the world is going to be dominated by Islam and we'll have Sharia law and then everything will be well. And then of course you have the red, the Marxists that they're going to destroy capitalism.
TC: And so Ayaan, what does it mean to live under Sharia law? Like what would it mean for America if the Islamists succeeded as they're moving closer and closer to doing in Europe? What would that mean as a practical matter?
AHA: It would mean a great deal of violence, chaos. Women will be the subjects of men. I mean they'Il have absolutely no rights. Non-Muslims will be subjected to um the Jews are how do l explain that? It's a lower status for non-Muslims. If you're only people of the book, gosh, if you're Jewish, you're going to be subjected to what Jewish people are subjected to on October 7. You see this.
TC: So, you're talking about violence and rape and murder.
AHA: Violence, rape, murder. I'm talking about floggings, public floggings. I'm talking about public stonings and some of the horrors that you now see in Nigeria, you see in parts of Indonesia, you see in Afghanistan, you still see it. Do you remember how the Taliban had promised a few years ago to the Biden administration, oh, we're not we're going to give women their rights, but they have denied women the rights to go to school. They have denied women the rights to do anything. Basically, you become sun factories. Um is what I was told when I was forced into marriage. Um the man I was about to be married off, he said, "You're going to have six sons for me or else." This is well known. I mean it is going to be the worst human existence you can ever imagine. It's a death cult.
TC: So Ayaan, let me ask you why.
AHA: Because on the left, many leftists also consider themselves feminists. And by the way, other leftists consider themselves LGBT activists. Is Islamism consistent with with any feminist notion or any notion of LGBT rights? Absolutely not. Uh look, in the countries where Sharia law is actually applied, homosexuals, the LGBT community, they taken to the tallest structures, tallest buildings, towers, whatever, and they're thrown off from there. That is the law. The law is to execute homosexuals. Women are to be covered and not to be seen. They are completely submissive. Um so that is Sharia law as it is applied anywhere in reality. But there is this political expediency where people who are on the far left, the Antifas of this world, the Mamani or one wing of the Mani followers, they think we are the ones once we get, you know, once we destroy America, once we destroy the existing structures, they think that they're going to dominate. That's just not how it works. But hey, why spoil their party? If Ocasio-Cortez (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) thinks that she and Zohran Mamdani have something in common, why spoil the party? I think the rest of us are going to say, "No, we don't want any of these collectivist subversive efforts and ask the question, I how is it possible that the capitalist city, the finance city of the world, Manhattan, is about to elect this these people?"
TC: And and what's your take on that? Are you surprised by the rise of Mandani? What What is given your life experience is this surprising to you or or or or not?
AHA: It's not surprising because in the last 30, 40 years I think what we have seen is this display of extreme lethal carelessness on the part of American elites where we have come to think of ourselves as invincible. We just think if we have enough materialism that everybody is going to be attracted to who we are and what we do and we don't have to worry about these collectivist ideologies. We killed Christianity. We killed spirituality. We turned our backs on our foundational principles and we're paying the price. And we're paying the price because our institutions of education from K to 12, the universities, we've allowed these people to take over and to preach. And when I look at a stadium full of people in New York that are cheering on Ocasio- Cortez and Zohran Mamdani, I think we are paying the price of this carelessness. I want to say having lived through and touched the bottom of the promised utopia of Sharia law, the promised utopia of communism and knowing there is nothing there but death like poverty. There's nothing there but oppression and suppression. There's nothing there but misery. I'm in a place where now I have come to see that the only way we fight those ideologies is by getting to the bottom of what are then the solid foundations of western civilization. That is biblical. It's Judeo-Christian. It is the sermon on the mount. I mean there is no denying it. It is the principles on which America is founded on. And right now America has been served well. But over time I think if you have two competing ideas, it's the idea of commun ism, it's the idea of Islamism, and then it's the idea of America. And I want the idea of America to win. And I want to dedicate my life to that.
TC: Amen. Uh let me ask you, we were talking about the Muslim Brotherhood. For our listeners, tell them what is the Muslim Brotherhood?
AHA: As you know, I've had I have legislation l've introduced in multiple congresses to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. And in the first Trump administration, I came close to succeeding. I didn't quite convince the president in the first term to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. I believe l will succeed in the second term.
TC: I think we're going to get it designated, but tell us, give us a little bit of history and context of what the Muslims Brotherhood is and your judgment on whether it is in fact a terrorist organization and should be designated as such.
AHA: I think the challenge for you, Senator Cruz, is going to be that you are going to have to understand two concepts as you legislate and it's going to be difficult, but I think you can do it. One part of it is the terrorist aspect of it which is the application of jihad or violence.
Yeah.
The other aspect the other side of the Muslim Brotherhood is the subversive effort which we have had. We are an open society. Maybe we'll debate what an open society means or doesn't mean.
But it's easy to access open societies if you are a subversive if you apply the subversive method. And so for you on a legislative basis, you will have to not only address the terrorist aspect which carries the violence but also the dawa , the subversive part of it.
The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by a teacher Hassan Albana in Egypt. And what he understood was that he had to deal with the fragmentation of Islam as he understood it. Islam was no longer an empire. Islam now was subjugated to the European powers that had developed nation states. In the nation state of Egypt. He understood that if he ever wanted to get state power, he would have to work very slowly and bottom up, start with the individual, the family, society. He preached about forming charities and then over time and time for them seems a completely different concept than what we have having persuaded as many people as possible taking on the levers of the state. That is the method that they apply. They've honed it. This is a method that's now become improved over time.
In Arab countries, it no longer works because Arab dominating governments have come to understand this thing has come for them. So now they work in Europe and in in America. They set up mosques and then schools, Islamic centers, they'll apply a whole neighborhood and over time they want to grow and like on do you remember the litmus paper when you drop
AHA: Sure. Just the way it spreads that is the way they want to take over societies and they have succeeded. I mean look at um Dearborn Michigan for us in the United States of America but when you go to the UK, France, Sweden, these are societies that are being taken over as they watch it and they stand there and they all say there's nothing we can do because the constitution. So the local constitutions, national constitutions have become documents that the Muslim Brotherhood can wave to say you can't stop us because everything we do is legal. Everything we do is peaceful or nonviolent. They'll apply the violence when they need it. But really they don't need to apply the violence because with ...
TCc: So explain to an American who has not seen it. Yeah, you just talked about how European countries were taken over by the Muslims Brotherhood and Islamists. Make that real. Explain what that means and what exactly has happened because l think that is a powerful warning to what could happen here as well.
AHA: When I was a member of parliament in 2006 and I was brought in to be the voice of modernity and westernism. Here's a woman from Somalia wherever and look at her. She has assimilated blah blah blah. So they brought me in. But then in 2006 we had local elections. The local elections, the Netherlands is a very small country and there are four large cities. The Hague, Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Utre. If my party, the VVD, which was the center party, wanted to win any of these urban cities, I had to be told to go there and say Islam is a religion of peace. I said, "I'm not going to say anything of the sort. l've got six armed guards. I'm not going to say Islam is a religion of peace."
TC: Repeat that for a second. You had six armed guards. Why? Why is that? Who was trying to kill you?
AHA: Well, the people who were trying to kill me was the protected minority of Muslims. Many of them who were radicalized by the Muslim local, Muslim Brotherhood in the Netherlands. And the local Muslim Brotherhood had control of the larger Muslim communities. And at that point, we knew that not all Muslims in the Netherlands were loyal to them. But they it was like the mafia. If you're a Muslim living in the Netherlands in one of these large cities, if they told you vote this way, you vote that way. And so the woman who was sort of sent in there, you know, colored immigrant, whatever, she was saying, "I can't win the votes if Ayaan is saying, is making these statements about Islam and the position of women and homosexuals and Christians and Jews and all of these things. So in order for me to win the vote or to even be competitive, I have to at least accommodate them in some of these policies."
TC: Now what are the policies that they were looking for?
AHA: They wanted to enshrine Islamophobia as law. They wanted to the government of the Netherlands to leave them alone so that they could treat women the way they wanted. They wanted FGM. They wanted uh honor killings. They just wanted and explain FGM, female genital mutilation that is the cutting of the genitals of women. I mean it is as a 5-year-old girl they take uh I'm talking to men here but you look at the female genitals you cut the inner labia, the outer labia and you saw so that you know on day of your wedding you can be presented to your husband as a virgin and this is something that predated Islam but obviously embraced by Muslims and spread across the globe by the Muslim Brotherhood. But these are some of the policies that we had to deal with. They had they wanted Sharia tribunals for marriage, divorce and that sort of thing. They were bringing in Sharia in a stealthily way and if you wanted to win these elections in these large cities that was in the Netherlands but now it's in France, it's in Belgium, it's in the United Kingdom, it's all over Europe. So we're talking about demographics which they control. And so as a politician I think you understand um numbers when it comes to winning elections and they held those numbers and this is what you have to understand.
So you can't just legislate on the ter , you can't just declare them a terrorist organization. You have to deal with the subversive efforts the fact that they control schools, boarding schools centers.
TC: John thank you for taking the time. Thank you for joining us. I think this has been a very informative podcast. I think our listeners are really going to get a lot out of it.
AHA: Let me encourage our listeners. Share this podcast if you want your friends, your family to understand the threat of political Islam, what it means, what it's meant in Europe, what it means here in America. Uh l think it is an incredibly important topic. It is a very real threat. It is a threat that I am committed to combating.
TC: Uh and one of the purposes of this podcast is to equip you, to give you information that when you're talking with your friends and families and colleagues and co-workers that you know the truth and I think this has been very helpful to our listeners. So thank you so much for joining us.
John: Thank you.
AHA: Thank you Ted.
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Platforms, with hashtags like #HirsiAliExposes, #CruzStunned, and #MuslimBrotherhood. Files trending worldwide. Supporters hailed the discussion as a “wake-up call” about ideological subversion in Western politics, while critics accused Hirsi Ali of “fearmongering” and spreading conspiracy theories.
Political analysts say the fiery back-and-forth will likely reignite debates about free speech, religious tolerance, and national security — particularly in a post-9/11 world still struggling to balance openness with vigilance.
In a follow-up interview, Hirsi Ali doubled down on her warning: “We can’t defend democracy with denial. The truth may be uncomfortable, but it’s necessary.”
For Ted Cruz, the moment underscored why Hirsi Ali remains one of the most compelling — and controversial — voices in the global fight against extremism.
Friday 21 November, 2025
USA TODAY
Trump and Mamdani in chummy White House meeting: recap
New York Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani and President Donald Trump emerged from a White House meeting with nothing but good things to say about one another after trading weeks of campaign-season insults and warnings.
"It was a productive meeting focused on a place of shared admiration and love, which is New York City and the need to deliver affordability to New Yorkers," Mamdani said in the Oval Office after the first-ever face-to-face meeting between the democratic socialist political star and the MAGA president who has mused about deporting him.
“I think you’re going to have, hopefully, a really great mayor,” said Trump, who even patted Mamdani on the arm.
President Donald Trump shakes hands with New York Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani as they meet in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington, DC.
The high stakes Nov. 21 meeting between billionaire Trump and Mamdani − who has said a fair system wouldn't allow billionaires to exist − included discussions on affordability, federal funds and infrastructure projects and Immigration and Customs Enforcement operations in the city.
Supporters of the mayor-elect had feared a televised ambush reminiscent of a February incident in which Trump and Vice President JD Vance ganged up on Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Instead, Trump freely praised Mamdani, and declined opportunities to criticize him in front of the cameras.
"I expect to be helping him, not hurting him," Trump said of Mamdani. "A big help."
More: Donald Trump to meet Zohran Mamdani. What's at stake in White House showdown?
President Donald Trump shakes hands with New York Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani as they meet in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington, DC.
Both Trump, 79, and Mamdani, 34, were elected in part by focusing on the cost of living. "Some of his ideas are the same as my ideas," the president said. "He wants to see housing go up, see a lot of housing created, apartments built...People would be shocked, but I want to see the same thing."
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